Wikilivres was the former and original name of Bibliowiki from 2006 to 2017. Due to loss of control over the domain name wikilivres.ca (and no access to the previously used wikilivres.org and wikilivres.info), the Wikilivres community decided to change its domain name (and therefore name) to biblio.wiki beginning on 1 July 2017.
Bibliowiki was chosen for several reasons, the main ones being availability (and affordability) of the domain biblio.wiki, and also an alignment with the function of the site, which acts as a library (akin to wikisource and wikicommons). It is also meant to avoid the confusion with the wikibooks and the French wikibooks sites.
See the discussion below.
Historical Discussion Below
Wikilivres.ca domain will DROP - Next Steps
Hi everyone. The registrar was informed by CIRA that when there is a death, the estate is to show the registrar the death certificate, and the registrar is to then cancel the registration, which means it enters the drop list. I've asked if we can just let the domain ride for now until it expires, and that there is likely going to be no action by the estate. I will let you know of their reply when I receive it.
Here is what will happen, most likely:
- Probably we can use the domain name until it expires, as I don't see the registrar doing anything without the death certificate.
- At some point (sooner or, at the latest, within two years) the domain will enter the drop list.
- There will most likely be up to 30 days when the domain would not be responsive at all (no records functioning).
- When the domain drops, then it will become available again, the best way of trying to get it is using a dropcatching service.
- Because domainers can see upcoming drops, there will likely be competition for a domain with 700+ domains linking to it, it becomes a bidding war.
There is no guarantee that we will be able to get wikilivres.ca when it drops, and it is only a matter of time when it does -- somewhere between today (not likely) and a little less than two years from now. The domain will be expensive to get when it does become available.
There is no other way around this that I can see, so we need to take action. I recommend we cut over to a new domain name as soon as possible, and start re-branding on it, get the interwiki links cut over, and start asking folks to rewrite their links to the new domain. We can have wikilivres.ca redirect to the new domain for as long as the registrar allows the current dns records (nameserver records) to exist (again, possibly up to 2 years).
So, we are back to figuring out what domain name to go with. We had more-or-less agreed on wikilivres.io, though it is not ideal (the .io confuses people, and that won't change anytime soon). I proposed publica.wiki, which dispenses with the old name. Another proposal was classics.wiki.Here was the reasoning:
- Wikilivres.io is a brand name that is shared with two other projects (wikilivres.ru, a spinoff of wikilivres.ca; and fr.wikibooks.org)
- The .io is confusing to people (especially as we are using Canadian copyright law)
- Another option is livres.wiki, which I think is a good use of the old name, and a generic tld (.wiki). This is probably the best for the old brand name, no confusion
- Publica.wiki would be a new brand name and essentially a proper name (it would have the most trademarkability), it has a sense of the public
- Classics.wiki is more generic, but says something about the content on the wiki
- I like Publica Wiki best. I think that it would be the name that the greatest number of speakers of different languages would find easy to pronounce. I think that the current name could be confusing to non-French speakers. Classics Wiki should also be easy to say and readily understandable to speakers of many different languages. I'm not sure that it really best summarizes our content, though. All works here are in the public domain but not all of them are widely regarded as classics. Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 05:24, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
comment -- can we get in touch with the estate/heirs? & just offer to buy it from them.
also; think we should at least "bookmark' it with good dropcatcher.
alsi, also; we definitely need to set up something, to stop this from ever happening again(!)
publica isn't bad; none of the options listed are terrible. but maybe we should play with ideas some more?
for example: does anyone know esperanto well enough to come up with a relevant word list?
or latin, etc.
P.S. -- (>__<)....!/? what a pain; i thought we had just got this sorted. :(
- I thought we paid for current name, so there is no rush. Now to the discussion. As I understand, we have two reasons for domain name changing: 1) to avoid confusion with other projects 2) the old one will expire in two years anyway. If we respect both reasons, we shoud drop all 4 names: publica, classics, wikilivres, livres. They are already used by other projects (websites). Esperanto libroj and spanish libros are taken too. For that path we need absolutely free, new names. I propose libros50, libroj50. We have to estimate then, can we buy the new name and all its variations, like libroj50.wiki and libroj50.com and libroj50.site and so on. Or else the problem of confusion will return sooner or later. If we cannot afford it and will consider only second reason, then... I don't know, maybe just to stay at wikilivres.io. The name publica has in russian the same word meaning audience. Classics is a bit misleading. Livres.wiki is not bad, also I like spanish Libros, esperanto Libroj. I am not insisting on anything, ready to see more names. -- VadimVMog (talk) 11:57, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- I like Libros50. I think it would be better to go with the Spanish "libros" rather than the Esperanto "libroj" (pronounced: /leebroy/). I think that to most people who don't speak Esperanto, a word ending in a j would just look very, very strange.
- To say the truth the name wikilivres.ca is known by many people, so changing the name is very risky. If we have to change it would be less risky to change it to wikilivres.something, where something can be wiki, io or something else. The next name publica.wiki is also not bad. And what about just pd.wiki? It is very short and easy to remember. And is not occupied now. Electron ツ ➧☎ 22:51, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- I agree about risk but we have no choice. The domain name was changed 5 years ago from wikilivres.info, and there are still a thousand links abandoned that never were rerouted. That's water under the bridge. In any case, pd.wiki is short and sweet, but it is therefore a premium, and costs $325 USD/year (at namecheap). --Jeffmcneill (talk) 00:06, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
- Well, for pd.wiki I've found an offer for $267.5 only (www.pananames.com), but anyway it is not very encouraging price... pd50.wiki is offered only for $6.88/year and retail $24.88/year (www.pananames.com) and pd50.org for $12.23. But they are not as sweetty and short as pd.wiki... Electron ツ ➧☎ 10:29, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Thinking about it all day long. Thinking how to avoid damage. If we change the name early (right now), we can redirect from wikilivres.ca to a new name, right? Then for almost two years existing links will lead to a new name and ppl (at least most of them) will get used to a new name and when wikilivres.ca drops, they will migrate more easily. As for a new name, well, I like that pd50.wiki. It's short, it's neutral, it reflects the content, it's cheap. -- VadimVMog (talk) 13:48, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
- Would pdomain50.wiki be more understandable, or would it be too long? --Zephyrus (talk) 15:52, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
- For a name, it may be helpful to be more generic or to be "fanciful" which is the strongest argument for trademark. If laws change, then PD50 might not be accurate. Fanciful would need to be more than the category in which it operates (public domain/free creative works). In this case, Yann.wiki would be a stronger basis to build a brand that is recognizable. Currently, though too long I think the best characterization is:
- * Public Domain and Free creative works (text/images)
- * Under the more permissive (than in US/EU) Life+50 copyright duration
- * In library terms, this is a *special collection*, or rather, several special collections at a special (digital) library
- * In several different languages
- It is impossible to catch all of these facets in a short name, but it seems that (while we do have some competition in the Gutenberg Canada), the fact that we do early access in relation to L+70 copyright duration countries, that something that captures that meaning might be interesting:
- * early.wiki
- * dawncollection.org
- Just more ideas for the stew. --Jeffmcneill (talk) 17:02, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
- pd50 is not linked to the country, so the name stll will be good, if Canada abandons Life+50. There are other countries with Life+50. They all can't change their laws. If they do, our project will die with any name. Hope this will not happen. This is interesting discussion, I hope none of us has negative emotions. It's always interesting to discuss future, to draw plans. -- VadimVMog (talk) 18:41, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
- Just more ideas for the stew. --Jeffmcneill (talk) 17:02, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
- Next my proposals:
- * biblio.wiki - my favorite - short, easy to remember and can be understood in many languages; wide and voluminous; unused and cheap ($6.88/year, retail $24.88/year)
- * publio.wiki - as biblio.wiki
- * freebiblio.wiki, freepublio.wiki
- * freetexts.wiki, freebooks.wiki,
- * bookworm.wiki, bibliophile.wiki, reader.wiki
- Electron ツ ➧☎ 18:56, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Let's make a list. So far we have:
Maybe it's time to choose? I'd like to have a choice -- not one name, but, say, four I like most. If everybody names 4 best, maybe we'll be able to name the best compromise. Do you agree or disagree with that? -- VadimVMog (talk) 20:56, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
- first: something.wikilivres.something is the only way for me to support it. Secondly: it is and it was not the way to discuss here important questions in some days only, this project is not that much frequently visited as others. I've just returned from a short journey and I must read some threads, but it is not OK to try to make quick decisions. Let us talk about it more than few days. -jkb- (talk) 22:31, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
question -- what if we used (carefully chosen) "sponsorship/advertising/whatever" -money to buy wikilivres.ca (&/or possibly wikilivres.info in the future)? question 2: will the price be as high for renewals, or is this just an "auction" for the initial rights? --Lx 121 (talk) 15:57, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- It's got the wiki,
- It replaces livres (books, in French), with works (in English, more inclusive, as in works of art/works of artistic creation, which would include non-books such as photos, poems, musical compositions, etc.),
- and it has a generic tld (.org).
I'll filter out some names. My filters are:
1) to avoid current or future name collision to have a unique name
2) it must be cheap (not much to worry about, if a name is unique, it's usually cheap too, but not always)
3) it must sound at least not bad in all european languages, even better to sound good
4) to reflect the site content
5) to be not too long
I'm not including "a name must be neutral" as it is not imprtant for me or else I would prefer Esperanto, which I like. Now I'll try to filter out (the number is the reason to exclude):
- publica.wiki -- 3 to Russians
- classics.wiki -- 4
- wikilivres.io -- 1
- livres.wiki -- 1
- libros50.wiki (slightly 4)
- libroj50.wiki -- 3
- pd.wiki -- 2
- pd50.wiki (sounds pidififty) (slightly 4)
- pdomain50.wiki -- 4 (the word "domain" has in English 2 meanings as in "web names domain" and "public domain")
- yann.wiki -- 4
- early.wiki -- 4
- dawncollection.org -- 4, 5
- biblio.wiki -- 1
- freetexts.wiki -- 4
- freebooks.wiki (slightly 4)
- bookworm.wiki -- 3 (and slightly 4)
- bibliophile.wiki -- 3, 5
- reader.wiki -- 4
My choice is pd50.wiki and freebiblio.wiki.
Please, take no offend, this is just my preferences. Some people will filter differently. With my respect to every opinion. -- VadimVMog (talk) 04:55, 29 April 2017 (UTC) @Jeffmcneill:, @Lx 121:, @Simon Peter Hughes:, @-jkb-:, @Electron:
- Hi, Oh, bad news... My preference goes, in that order, to publica.wiki, biblio.wiki, wikiworks.org. Regards, Yann (talk) 10:22, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
biblio.wiki seems to have a lot of support
I've looked through these comments and it appears that biblio.wiki seems to have a lot of support. There are good aspects to this name:
- Short - Cheap (.wiki) - Has a sense of "library" (biblioteka, etc.) - Not a bad sound "Beeb Lee Ohh Wee Kee" / "Bihb Lee Ohh Wih Kee"
The only thing against it is the biblio.com antiquarian online bookseller. Nonetheless, from a trademark approach I think biblio.wiki is still viable, as follows:
- Biblio.com is a US online bookstore/marketplace
- The Biblio trademark is a service mark for Operating on-line marketplaces featuring used, rare and out of print books
If we always used the term Biblio.wiki / bibliowiki / BiblioWiki, etc., and never operated an online-marketplace for books, then there should not be any confusion (and certainly we are not in the same business).
For this reason I would like to move forward with this name. I'd prefer not to have a complicated voting process, but a straight up-or-down support/oppose/neutral, if that is ok? --Jeffmcneill (talk) 15:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
- ok, if it must be :-( ... biblio.wiki will get my support -jkb- (talk) 18:19, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think there should an issue: we are not a market place (everything is free here ;oP ), and we are not a bookshop, we are an online library. Regards, Yann (talk) 19:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
- I'm OK with this name. -- VadimVMog (talk) 20:09, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
- OK for me too. --Zephyrus (talk) 00:48, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
- i'm fine with biblio.wiki as the new name; but i still think we should consider the question of whether we could pay for 'wikilivres.ca' out of sponsorship/selective-advertising/whatever revenues.
- also: 1. we really Really REALLY need to make sure that this problem never happens again.
- & 2. if we make biblio.wiki into a "successful" name, is that going to affect what it costs us to keep it in the future?
Hi folks, I've registerered biblio.wiki for 4 years (locking in the current discount for that amount of time). A few comments on some recent discussion:
- wikilivres.ca is not available for sale. It will go through the process of dropping and then likely a bidding on a drop-catch (see previous discussion). That said, there are yearly fees for domain names (and monthly fees for web hosting/backup/dns). I am covering the monthly costs, and along with donations from three Wikilivreans have paid for the new domain name.
- I agree that the same situation can easily take place (single point of failure). We don't necessarily need a formal organization to prevent this, but definitely sharing of the key account/login/email/password info with a select group. I suggest that during May we set up some minimal structure (that could grow as needed), which would include the key parts (below). Informally this would begin with giving @Yann: the account info.
- Domain registration account (login/password)
- Website hosting account (login/password)
- Operating system accounts (logins/passwords)
- In terms of the renaming/rebranding, I suggest that we look at 01 June as a cutover date. Communication should include what this means for the community (technically and naming), and how to communicate this to all visitors.
- Wikilivres.ca as a domain should work (as long as it works) for us, so while it is wise to take action and move on this now, that domain should still work (as a known and loved brand).
- A more formal organization (registered in Canada or another country) is not a bad idea, though there is paperwork and expense (yearly), even without any profits, and no benefit (other than in the event that we find ourselves in, there is a legal chain of command). (P.S., I have operating companies in the US and Thailand, including monthly accounting filings/yearly audits.) --Jeffmcneill (talk) 18:54, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
- Note, from what I can tell from Canadian govt sites, costs are as follows: Trademark $250. Incorporation $200 + $20/year. Cooperative $250 + $40. (Canadian dollars).
- How about we wait until next April, which would be the 12th anniversary of the site? That would give us a year on the new platform, and we could revisit it then? I realize several people have been on this site for many years, but I'm a newcomer, and it is still taking time to get everything working. At that point I can help with the process, and part of the cost, provided there is interest by other editors. Incorporation/Company Formation would provide us individual legal protection, a legal entity for ownership purposes, and more paperwork (with accounting, there is usually an audit requirement that we would have to hire an accounting firm to do, so also more expense). I suggest we pursue trademark only after company formation, if at all. --Jeffmcneill (talk) 03:12, 13 May 2017 (UTC)