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We should have a community-wide discussion about our long-term hosting plan. I am willing to help financially and logistically as I can but note that I am located in the United States and I am an American citizen. First off: do we have any Canadian resident editors here who are interested in this responsibility? Koavf (talk) 07:45, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why one needs to be a Canadian citizen to host content in Canada. I'm certainly not (Canadian) and it is the easiest thing to deal with VPS cloud providers (there are many operating in Canada). Our current host is SSDNodes.com and we have a great deal with them ($9.99/mo), but they full and cannot provide additional resources. Amazon AWS is offered in Montreal, both EC2 and now LightSail. All of these do require technical knowlege in setting up and securing a server (which is not trivial). Note that there is one Mediawiki-specified host in Canada which offers MediaWiki hosting, though it is not clear the extent of support provided. Should be worth contacting them: https://www.mezzohost.com/webhosting/mediawiki/ --Sysadmin (talk) 04:28, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
- Note: Koavf's post was prompted by a message I sent to all donors of Biblio.wiki, as follows:
- Hi guys,
- On Nov 1st, I'll be shutting down the virtual private server that has https://biblio.wiki hosted on it. After that, I will not be running any servers that will be able to host Biblio.wiki. This means I'm getting out of the Mediawiki hosting business, and that means the Biblio.wiki website will need to find another virtual home (or take over the current account at SSDNodes for hosting) at that point, and also someone to do the maintenance on it.
- Unfortunately I don't have any recommendations to make regarding who/where to do the hosting and maintenance. People who have read the technical and policy discussion pages are already familiar with my consideration of the viability of the platform (not good). Unfortunately, those few who are active on the site generally use the functionality that makes it uniquely Mediawiki, especially running bots and the djvu-support.
- Right now the site uses 37gb out of a 40gb limit, which is not sustainable. File growth is a major issue on the site as it is currently configured. I've tried to think of various ways around it, but I find I simply don't have the time to try and deal with this properly, and provide the support the project needs to remain healthy. My lack of time is partially due to the fact that at home we have a growing 8 month old child, in addition to our 2 year, 9 month old child.
- I started helping out this project about 18 months ago and we did get some level of uptime going for a system which had shut down and all that was available was data backups. It is now time for someone else to take on the opportunity to serve the Biblio.wiki community in this way. I appreciate all the trust and patience you have offered me over the previous 18 months to help out in this technical capacity.
- November 1st is a hard deadline, so getting to work and doing a transition/migration earlier than that is wise.
- Please use the bibliowiki site to discuss this issue and it will be a community decision on whom will get the technical keys to the kingdom, with all who contributed finanically so far, to have a vote.
- - wiith regards, --Sysadmin (talk) 04:32, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
- To say the truth I am puzzed what to say... My hands slipped... I am not familiar with servers and hosting. I am pretty good with editing only. I have not idea what to do at the moment. Maybe it would be a good idea to move on a free wiki farm like Miraheze? But it is an American firm... Or transfer our content to wikilivres.ru, as I proposed in previous time. Electron ツ ➧☎ 10:19, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
I am puzzled by the claim that "those few who are active on the site generally use the functionality that makes it uniquely Mediawiki, especially running bots and the djvu-support." I am one of the most active users and have never used either function. All I need is the ability to upload text, ideally with certain formatting capabilities such as bold and italic. Thus I would be quite content not to continue with wiki software. I would have some problems with trying to use wikilivres.ru, as the interface is in Russian. Who owns and operates this site? Does Russian copyright law allow for a 50 year cut-off? --Poetlister
- For me Mediawiki is essential. I have to say it: no Mediawiki, no my work... I have no time to learn new type of wiki and change more that 30.000 pages to fit them new type of formatting. Wikilivres.ru is run by Dmitrismirnov. It was not against about our moveing to the site. Main interface every mediawiki can be changed to many languages in yours preferences when you are logged in. I suppose Russian are not as strike to copyright rules as others, so we would abide our previous rules... But if you have better proposition I am not against... Electron ツ ➧☎ 11:49, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
- Russia has a Life+70 copyright regime, which would make most content illegal if hosted on wikilivres.ru, unfortunately. If they moved hosting to Belarus that would not be an issue (and Belarus has many hosting options), since that is one of the last remaining countries in Europe with a Life+50 copyright regime. Mezzohost as mentioned above is a Canada-based Mediawiki-specific hosting company. I would think finding out their options would be a good step forward. P.S., note that the Miraheze.org site is hosted in the Netherlands, a Life+70 regime. --Sysadmin (talk) 03:43, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
That site is not hosted in Belarus. Sysadmin was just saying that if they moved to Belarus we would be OK under the 50-year rule. I am quite happy with Mezzohost.--Poetlister 19:54, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- Looks not bad. They offer price starting at $29/year and a 15% discount for non-profit organizations and community groups. But I haven't found their regular prices... Electron ツ ➧☎ 10:25, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
- I made some enquiries via the Wikipediocracy.com website and had the following response from User Dysklyver there. If it is helpful, I can put you in contact. (He tried to create an account here but could not; I told him to e-mail email@example.com. He also notes that Special:Version is missing. In fact, it is ther ebut can't be seen when logged out.)
- I am quite the expert in setting up MediaWiki now, I have done 11 sites and multiple complex installs such as wikibase etc, if you guys need help moving server I am happy to assist. AWS and Google Cloud offer Canadian hosting, the system admins do not need to be Canadian. My recommendation would be to use one of these.
- I would not recommend a Mediawiki specific server farm such as Mezzohost - you could use it, but I strongly warn you not to. Without root access you will have problems with extensions and file hosting. Although I joke about maybe hosting my blog in Russia, this is far from ideal and should be avoided, as really should Belarus. Miraheze is not an option currently due to extensions, it is entirely US based and not an option due to copyright. Google Cloud allows for easy drive expansion, AWS is not so good at this, since their pricing and services are comparable I would suggest Google Cloud, this is where I host World Wiki.
- Your existing package that costs $9.99 a month is very cheap compared to Google's quoted $28 a month. It could be beneficial to offload image storing to another server and keep your current package.
- In conclusion I think the best idea would be to host all the images, divj's etc in a flat file system separate to the server. This is reasonably easy to setup with something like Extension:CloudStorage.
- I have registered here now, my current thoughts are that there are four clear options:
- Remain using the current package and limit the number of files to avoid running out of storage.
- Move the wiki to a larger server which would be more expensive.
- Move the wiki to a split format where the images are in an expandable cloud storage system and not on the server.
- Move the wiki onto someone else's infrastructure.
- Note that AWS just cut their Lightsail VPS prices in half, and they do have Canada locations. This I think is the best approach, except for just keeping the site where it is. While we do have 4 processors and 8gb of ram, I've never seen it go above 4gb of ram so my guess is the other 4gb isn't really accessible. Lightsail is a much better deal than EC2 because it includes several DNS zones, a whole lot of throughput/bandwidth, and storage space. As long as Bibliowiki has the technical skills to keep their own installation up and running, then staying on SSDnodes or moving to Amazon Lightsail seems to me the most viable VPS hosting.
- Poetlister's and Dysklyver's thoughts on dealing with images using an external location (as one option) mirror my own, though some clever compression might make that less critical (I've not yet addressed the compression issue, running compression tools against the file system, though it does have promise). It is reassuring that some of the editors have the technical skills needed to keep this project going, which I was not aware of up until now. --Sysadmin (talk) 15:09, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
- With the current host, it appears to be possible to upgrade the current server from 40gb to 80gb. However, the new plan is $167.99 annually (payable upon upgrade). This would basically solve the biggest issue which strikes every few months when the server runs out of space. It is also not much more than we pay currently ($14/mo vs. $10/mo). We have maybe $20 or so in the current donations (I have to do the accounting, there were some recent donations), but I think it might be possible to find an external sponsor who could pay effectively $120 for the year for a few links/name recognition as a sponsor. Let me know the thoughts on this. Editor/admin donations barely keep up with current expenses. --Sysadmin (talk) 05:14, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
- There are complications with upgrading the host. The virtual server technology for their current offering is different from what we are currently running (OpenVZ vs. KVM), therefore there is no painless upgrade path. It would require backup and restore of files, but also reinstalling the operating system and configuration. We really need someone to step up and take over the role/function/responsibility of Sysadmin, to do this kind of work. --Sysadmin (talk) 07:18, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
I think "a few links/name recognition as a sponsor" is fair enough. I am happy to make a significant donation once the new system is up and running.--Poetlister 19:59, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
- As Dysklyver has said already, he is happy to be sysadmin. However, he declines to handle the finance. Really, we need someone in the right country to do that.--Poetlister 16:48, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
Clarification of copyright status and another question
Although I am a Canadian, (from Québec), I know nothing of our Copyrigt laws. I want to upload Lenin, God of the Godless by Ferdinard A. Ossendowski. The book was originally published in 1931 and someone from the USA renewed the Copyright in 1958. Does the book qualify for upload?
Also, I would like to install here my en.Wikisource proofreading tools like Common.css, Common.js and some other .js tools. - I am OK if some won't work, but I don't want to cause a problem.
- @Ineuw: Copying your preferences is fine. When did the author die? Koavf (talk) 01:00, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
- Regarding copyright, the standard Canadian law is Life + 50 years, though there are many special exceptions under Canadian law. Generally speaking (if no exception applies) the work you mention is in the Public Domain under Canadian Law. Note that the version you link to is out of an Indian library, where it is life + 60 years. My only question is, why upload the book here if it is already in Archive.org? --Sysadmin (talk) 05:01, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
- @Sysadmin: Thanks for asking about my work environment. I have everything necessary. As for uploading Ossendowski's book, is it not the purpose of Biblio.wiki where we can install and proofread books which cannot be uploaded to the Commons/Wikisource because of US Copyright restrictions? Also, the email address selector in Preferences/Notifications leads to a non-existent page. Perhaps my current email address is missing? Ineuw (talk) 03:16, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
It looks like we really need to re-host outside of Canada
- sigh* http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2018/10/from-copyright-term-to-super-bowl-commercials-breaking-down-the-digital-nafta-deal/ Koavf (talk) 17:32, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
- It's because in Soviet times it was Belorussia, now it is Belorus, and I still call it Belorussia out of habit. It's difficult to remember all those renames, please forgive me. I need some information: 1) how much space we need 2) how much traffic our site produces monthly 3) what about wiki-engine? provider must have it? — VadimVMog (talk) 06:01, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
- On the second thought, Belarus is not the best choise exactly for me. US can't push Belarus, but Russia can. So it may happen, that Russian content will be the reason for pressure. What other options beside Belarus do we have? Interesting to me look China Cuba, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Iran, Kazakhstan (is more independent than Belarus), Korea, Malaysia(?), Monaco, Mongolia, Philippines, South Africa, Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam. Don't know much about Egypt. The full list is here — VadimVMog (talk) 05:45, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
- For countries which have decent Internet infrastructure and Life+50 there are a few options to consider: Belarus, South Korea, and Hong Kong. While there are many countries in Southeast and East Asia with Life+50, most are not viable because of either a lack of Internet infrastructure/policies and/or local censorship laws and/or practices.
- Belarus is the only CIS country in Europe that is Life+50, so they have clearly taken a pro-public domain stance and there are no signs of any changes coming. I agree they are potentially pressurable by Russia, but that hasn't happened yet, including the CIS agreements where everyone else converted to Life+70. The only negatives are that I think VPNs are illegal (which is what I usually use to communicate/manage servers with), and VPS hosting will be more expensive than elsewhere (though still reasonable).
- Hong Kong is Life+50 and previously had UK laws, which make them more legally clear, though it is increasingly coming under censorship from China. Personally I think that China is a greater threat to Hong Kong (though they also support Life+50) than Russia is to Belarus.
- South Korea is Life+50, and they were never invited to be a part of TPP, though they have many/enough trade agreements with other countries. They are likely the most independent of the three countries listed. In addition, Amazon has AWS Lightsail with a Seoul, South Korea location. This provides an inexpensive VPS hosting option --> 2gb ram/60gb ssd for $10/mo.
- Japan is Life+50 but they have a provision for WWII Allies countries where from 8-11 years are tacked on because of the lack of copyright protections during the war. The exact length depends on the country and when they signed onto an agreement, so it is all a bit complex. Treat them as a Life+60 country and that is likely the most accurate assessment (in which case they resemble India in copyright length). Also, Japan was about to cave into Life+70 demands in the TPP agreement (along with MY, NZ, VN) until that provision was pulled from the agreement with the leadership of Canada. --Sysadmin (talk) 05:32, 9 October 2018 (UTC)